easymode

Destroyed007 wrote: Mar 27th, '26, 05:51 Yeah I didn't have the guts to break the bad news that your particular SB16 is one of those ViBRA models that has the cut-down FM synth, because I was afraid to tell you the disappointment. The one in the pic below is supposedly what yours is?

Damnit man, break the bad news to me! lol. I have the SB 16 Vibra just on the shelf... it's actually new in box. I got it for $49 a while back... also picked up a SB 16 PCI in the box for $20 from the same person. I didn't realize it was a Vibra and hadn't checked... Anyway, if you hadn't started talking about it I wouldn't have taken a closer look at it... and I could have been mid-build when I realized there was no Yamaha chip... and that would have been way worse than hearing the bad news.

So, about those other SB compatible cards. Where do you get your information on those? I went down some rabbit holes with some of those... the Yamaha cards look good... That one you linked looks legit too. I looked at some of them and found the Yamaha chip, but some don't seem to have it? I could just be missing it. Do you think any of them are better than a real SB 16? I want max compatibility. I kinda stopped looking at those because I don't want to deal with any edge cases...

I ended up getting one of these for a good price: It's just the SB 16, but the correct one with Yamaha OPL3. I also found one that is firmware 405... so it's before the midi bug was introduced. Should be good.

ward wrote: Mar 28th, '26, 23:21
So, about those other SB compatible cards. Where do you get your information on those? I went down some rabbit holes with some of those... the Yamaha cards look good... That one you linked looks legit too. I looked at some of them and found the Yamaha chip, but some don't seem to have it? I could just be missing it. Do you think any of them are better than a real SB 16? I want max compatibility. I kinda stopped looking at those because I don't want to deal with any edge cases...

I too, went down the rabbit hole after buying a ViBRA 16, not knowing that the real value is in the SB16 cards containing the Yamaha OPL chip.

As for the cards that "don't" seem to have it, I'll clear this up. When Creative first released the SB16 the OPL synthesiser was a standalone chip Creative obtained from Yamaha. At the beginning of 1993, they began integrating the YMF-262 FM chip into their CT1747 sound processor for their "Value Edition" SB16 cards, and the CT1747 chip doesn't have Yamaha's "OPL" logo on it; possibly due to Creative at that time who have yet obtain the rights to use the logo. However, that card does have a real OPL FM synth built into but no longer as a standalone chip.

Creative continued to use the OPL synth on their soundcards, including on their earlier AWE32 soundcards, right up until 1995 when they released their own, cut-down FM synthesiser called the CQM, which tries to emulate the samples the Yamaha OPL uses. But overall, Creative's implantation was not great. Reason they took the shortcut then was competition in the sound card market was getting tough, and attributed to this, costs.

Also, something worth mentioning if you are thinking of getting an AWE32 soundcard. Creative did released a SB32 sound card, and the most important part here is this is not to be confused with the AWE32. The SB32 is a significantly cut down AWE32 that would begin the cheaper ViBRA line-up, all containing Creative's CQM FM synth, which some true AWE32 soundcards does have too.

While this may sound bad for us, there is a good news in choosing the right card. To tell if the card (SB16 or AWE32) does have Creative's CQM chip, look for the chip that says "CT1978" anywhere. This will be the CQM chip and that's the one you should be avoiding if you want the best quality. Regarding the "hanging notes" MIDI bug, cards with DSP v4.04, 4.05 (like yours), and 4.16 has no bug, including the cards with a CT1747 DSP chip.

Lastly, if you are interested in it, the AWE64 range. They all don't have the OPL FM synth, but even that alone still doesn't undermine how good the AWE64 sounds, compared to the AWE32. All of the AWE64 cards also has no "hanging notes" MIDI bug.

Where I got my info on all of this?

• https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufa ... eative.php
• Wikipedia also has some relevant details on the Soundblaster cards that may not have been covered elsewhere. They also have an audio clip comparing the OPL-3 vs CQM.
• Vogons also have some good discussions going on, although I try to avoid a lot of the drama that pops up anywhere in any thread, lol
• https://theretroweb.com/ - It's like a Wiki for old computing related stuff, including obscure hardware

Additionally, this comparison video went as far as including ESS' own FM synth, which actually sounds excellent, like Yamaha's.



Looking at the card you just bought, that looks extremely similar to mine, with the hardware volume dial at the expansion slot, lol. Mine is just a pinch newer with a different model number, made in 1993, and unfortunately, possibly a CT1741 DSP. Haven't tested mine just yet, due to the motherboard I am going to use is still missing a CPU; need to find a Coppermine, Mendocino, or Coppermine-T CPUs, which is not easy where I live.

The audio rabbit hole ended up cutting into my real life... oops. So, yeah... I did look for an AWE32 with OPL and everything else, but couldn't find one for a decent price unless they were bugged versions... or versions with creative OPL that I hate (sounds thin compared to the Yamaha). If I wasn't a psycho for audio, then this would be easy... and I'm not a psycho for fidelity... but rather tone and timber... I don't care if one card is slightly noisier so long as it sounds better to me. So, I'm going to keep with my SB16 since it is pre-midi bug. It does have the wavetable port if I need it, but I have the MT-32 and SC-55, so I don't think I'm going to need it.

For a bit, I did consider going all out with this:


https://theretroweb.com/expansioncards/ ... e64-legacy

Some crazy Russians are harvesting AWE64 chips, adding ram, wavetable support, and a real Yamaha TMF262 OPL3 chip... so, basically the best DOS sound card ever (even works with regular AWE64 drivers)... BUT it's $500. Also, it feels weird to support the destruction of old cards... but honestly, the AWE64 was kinda shit imo since they went with their own FM Synth that sounded meh to me. It would have the best, cleanest audio for DOS... and if you were rich you could get that AND this:
https://www.serdashop.com/DreamBlaster-X16GS

However, I don't think the DreamBlaster sounds as good as my MT-32... so again, It's new and fancy, but my old midi module is better for me still.

---

I added a few things to the build as well. First, I grabbed a Floppy emulator:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/187262880060?i ... SwYv9oNmvW

It works with the "fast floppy" firmware, so it'll be great for DOS and Windows stuff...

AND I added a CD-ROM emulator:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/polpotronics/picoide

---

For Windows audio, I'm sticking with my SB Live 5.1 even though I do have an Audigy ZS... I'm considering adding an Aureal Vortex 2 for the A3D sound... and cleaner outs:
https://theretroweb.com/expansioncards? ... B0%5D=3627

It's better than the Creative stuff, but Creative screwed them in court. Anyway, I would just use a switcher externally for my speakers... I don't want to do route them together with line in nonsense because that will get noisy.

The deal is that if I did use the Audigy, I would have cleaner signals and EAX3 (only matters in Windows 2000+)... However, Audigy drivers replace the Aureal drivers A3D dll files, so it would be a nightmare to use the two cards together. The SB live doesn't have A3D wrappers, so they can both work together... SB for EAX and Vortex 2 for A3D (does sound better than EAX usually). Ideas... maybe...

Anyway, that's the update... I should stop this and get to "real" work.

That's great you have the MT-32. So in this case you'll have no need for the Wavetable.

The DreamBlaster does look interesting to me. Imagine being able to get hold of all of the available samples and produce the cleanest audio ever in DOS games and as well when making audio. The price; yeah... ...unless you're rich enough to give your "favourite" Twitch streamer 100+ gifted subs per month and not having to worry about what's going on around the world right now, lol. Same thing goes for the Frankenstein AWE64 Super Duper sound card. Worst of all, they're nowhere to be found for sale, so it's not for everybody. I also doubt if the project is still alive. So good ambition, but not sustainable overall. I'm happy with my SB16, and same goes for you.

As for your SB Live, it is a matter of preference. Listen to every audio with both EAX and A3D and then finally choose which one you'll go for.

ward wrote: Mar 30th, '26, 13:17
AND I added a CD-ROM emulator:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/polpotronics/picoide

Here's a bit I don't get. Since the device has the ability to emulate both CD-ROMs and various IDE hard drives, how would you able to deliver both the IDE and ATAPI protocols through the same primary IDE master connector? Say if you're using the Pico for IDE hard drive emulation, then you suddenly wanting to change to CD-ROM ATAPI, you'd have to temporarily break away from the hard drive virtualisation, while accessing through your virtual CD-ROM, which will result in a crash since the OS will suddenly have a missing hard drive. If you try to use both at the same time, it would cause some conflict to the motherboard's controller, since you're pretty much trying to connect both an IDE CD drive and an IDE hard drive into the same primary channel, IDE master connector. Wouldn't that mean you'll have to buy 2 Picos; one for CD-ROM emu, and another dedicated for IDE hard drive emulation.

Regarding the the Frankenstein AWE64 Super Duper sound cards, I could have sworn that I saw a post from them saying more cards in 2026... but I can't find it now. I do honestly knida want one just because I've never heard real Yamaha OPL3 on a very low-noise card. I do have that USB OPL3 modern device though, but that's just for Windows 10.

Also, someone made a VERY handy list for sound blaster cards... so I copied it here. I'm feeling even better about the SB 16 that I picked up now. It really does sound like the sensible solution and I'll probably make a video about this eventually.

Destroyed007 wrote: Mar 31st, '26, 02:43 Here's a bit I don't get. Since the device has the ability to emulate both CD-ROMs and various IDE hard drives, how would you able to deliver both the IDE and ATAPI protocols through the same primary IDE master connector?

I think the idea is to run two of these... I do see one use case. If you have your primary OS on an internal drive, you could use the IDE HDD mode as a secondary drive that you only use occasionally. This could be handy for throwing a ton of files onto the sd then copying them over to your primary drive... Then again, I'd rather just use USB for that... so I'm not sure who would actually do that... I wonder if it would cause typical sd/IDE headaches as well, and it would require a reboot every time you wanted to use it. I'm just going to use it as an optical drive.

EDIT... damnit... totally forgot about this card... I probably need a whole thread just for sound cards at this point:

https://pcmidi.eu/orpheus2.html
It's a newer card that is basically a SB Pro, Gravis Ultrasound, RAM, wavetable header, midi header, AND Yamaha YMF262 OPL3 on one board... plus the AC'97 header. The OPL3 is accessible in Windows 9x too. So you can run the card in whatever mode you want. This might be better than that frankenAWE card since it also has Ultrasound... and it's custom... but it doesn't seem they are making them anymore... How did I miss all these?!

ward wrote: Mar 31st, '26, 11:52
I think the idea is to run two of these... I do see one use case. If you have your primary OS on an internal drive, you could use the IDE HDD mode as a secondary drive that you only use occasionally. This could be handy for throwing a ton of files onto the sd then copying them over to your primary drive... Then again, I'd rather just use USB for that... so I'm not sure who would actually do that... I wonder if it would cause typical sd/IDE headaches as well, and it would require a reboot every time you wanted to use it. I'm just going to use it as an optical drive.

I do wonder about needing to get 2 of the Pico to be able to pull that off, otherwise by shoving everything onto the primary IDE master you're just ending up nowhere but at resource conflict hell. And since there are so many hard drives out there that are still alive and well for the time being, as well as just going CF alternatively, I agree on using this to just emulate optical media. Useful as for someone who has like 1m burned CDs and wanting to consolidate everything into one SD card.

Same goes for floppy media, the Gotek is a genius idea. Pretty much so, as floppy media is much worse than optical discs in terms of lifespan. From someone who has a shitload of floppy drives recently acquired form a huge pile that someone wanted to get rid of, and a stash of floppy disks, they do not last that long, even in storage. I had to discard a lot of disks that are unable to be read, and I predict that I may have some drives with sensors that have gone bad over time. CD drives; I'm sure there are many good ones out there, including IDE DVD drives.

ward wrote: Mar 31st, '26, 11:52
EDIT... damnit... totally forgot about this card... I probably need a whole thread just for sound cards at this point:

https://pcmidi.eu/orpheus2.html
It's a newer card that is basically a SB Pro, Gravis Ultrasound, RAM, wavetable header, midi header, AND Yamaha YMF262 OPL3 on one board... plus the AC'97 header. The OPL3 is accessible in Windows 9x too. So you can run the card in whatever mode you want. This might be better than that frankenAWE card since it also has Ultrasound... and it's custom... but it doesn't seem they are making them anymore... How did I miss all these?!

Like I said, while I admire the project and I do really strongly support for fan-made projects regarding to making a proper ISA sound card since Creative has a vast mixed bag of the good and bad on each of their Sound Blaster card, they don't seem to be all that sustainable in a long-run. But as for this card, I think this is by far much better than some mad Russian in his lab, taking chips from various cards, creating Frankenstein of all the sound cards.

I think to have a sustainable project of reviving sound cards of the DOS period, it'll have to be grounds up with a new chip or so, with those classic features incorporated into some sort of FPGA or a brand new ASIC.

I already have a Win 9x machine, but I do want to upgrade it. For a bit now I've been looking at putting in something like a 3DFX Voodoo Banshee, and the 4MB Matrox thats in it is a little weak for 3D games. I still want to have the option for 2D games, so going to a full 3D card isnt really an option.

Intel Pentium Pro 200 Mhz
Matrox Millienium 4MB
128 MB Ram
SB16/32

That's a good early W9x build. It kinda sucks because I wanted a machine that could play everything, but there was a big shift from SB pro to the 16-bit stuff (fine for Windows, but you'll need another card for DOS SB Pro stuff), and graphics went from glide to DirectX. So, some later DirectX cards are fine for glide (with wrappers), they aren't perfect.

So, the Voodoo cards are probably the best for early stuff and the Banshee is the best price to performance ratio... it only has one TPU vs the Voodoo 2 which has 2. So, the Voodoo 2 is really needed for games like MW2 when you are playing in DOS mode. The Voodoo 3 only has one TPU as well (I think), but it's faster. If you go all out and can spend $160 or so, the Voodoo 3 is good for W9x, not so much for DOS... the Voodoo 2 is still the best for DOS stuff. If you only care about Windows, then the Voodoo 2 doesn't matter as much.

That was a mess of a paragraph... basically Banshee is fine for Windows, Voodoo 3 is faster.... and if you want to game in DOS, Voodoo 2 is really the best way to go.

---

I updated my soundcard yet again... all this thanks to the rabbit holes @Destroyed007 got me going down. I have settled on the Yamaha YMF719E-S branded as a Labway A151-A00 ISA Soundcard. I figured SB Pro 2 compatibility was more important than perfectly crispy 16-bit audio... the Yamaha has cleaner outputs compared to the SB pro 2 and the OPL3 is real and unfiltered. SB Pro 2 can sound muffled because it applies a filter to all the FM synth... the SB 16 fixed this, but those cards have some stereo compatibility issues with some (not many) games and many have the midi bug (mine doesn't, but still).

ward wrote: Apr 13th, '26, 22:18 I updated my soundcard yet again... all this thanks to the rabbit holes @Destroyed007 got me going down.

I hope it was worth it. You will then rule the world with your 8 bit MIDI mixtapes

ward wrote: Apr 13th, '26, 22:18 I have settled on the Yamaha YMF719E-S branded as a Labway A151-A00 ISA Soundcard. I figured SB Pro 2 compatibility was more important than perfectly crispy 16-bit audio... the Yamaha has cleaner outputs compared to the SB pro 2 and the OPL3 is real and unfiltered. SB Pro 2 can sound muffled because it applies a filter to all the FM synth... the SB 16 fixed this, but those cards have some stereo compatibility issues with some (not many) games and many have the midi bug (mine doesn't, but still).

That's another good sound card that I am looking into getting, as if already having a SB Pro 2 isn't enough. But yep, excellent SB Pro 2 compatibility, and it is virtually free of all of the problems the SB16 family has. Not to mention, also one of the cheapest SB Pro 2 capable cards you could get right now.

The world of 8-16 bit era of sound cards do yield a lot of potential thanks to modern technology and how easy these days we can get access to them. Right now, I am on a fence on whether to try making my own MT32-Pi based setup or just get a wavetable board.